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Bandwidth Management to address delays?

 
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mufon
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 296
Location: HIghland Village, Texas

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:43 am    Post subject:

Realistically, the endpoints are what really count, because that is where packets gain payload. The mtu at your endpoints have to be equal to or smaller than the smallest mtu of the path between endpoints. The optimal mtu is always going to be the mtu that fits the pipeline between endpoints without splitting the application layer's payload, therefore your mtu at your pc should equal the lowest mtu along the path between endpoints. Anything lower than that is not necessary unless you are unsure of the path mtu. In that case a little too low is better that a little too high., but going is low as 200 is just ridiculous and would only increase the aggregate latency of payload delivery, unless of course your path mtu is 200. Not likely unless your using dialup or pony express. If someone has a "stutter"problem they may want to see a therapist, but lowering endpoint mtu below path mtu isn't going to be of any help. Jitter on the other hand is not an mtu problem but rather is because of packets that arrive out of sequence and the transport protocol is udp. Since jack's jitter buffer is set in the registry and changes made will get overwritten the next time jack starts, then the next option is to set qos, tos, or cos if possible. Start by adding qos to your ip stack in Windows, and set any settings your router may provide. Sip should be "cs3" and rtp should be "ef". Simple qos settings would be priorities 3 and 5 respectively, or "maximize reliability" and "minimize delay" respectively. Tos values of 0x68 and 0xB8 are good if appropriate.for your router. Settings that maximize throughput or bandwith are tempting but won't provide the result you seek.
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testing123
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:56 am    Post subject:

HolmanGT wrote:
testing123,

And with the hypothetical 200 for an MTU you might actually be Transmitting more packet overhead than data. I don't remember the exact figures but I read on DSLreports that IP packets at 1472 - 1500 are about 12% overhead (none data). At an MTU of 200 the data to packet overhead would be insane.


That is correct ... I never suggested 200 -- that is ridiculously low. Typical that I have seen, (on a DSL connection, for example) is 1300-1472.

Gerry_52 wrote:
At that point packet loss becomes catastrophic because I would imagine a fair portion of that information keeps the call in session. The other problem, if you want to call it that is I am running a Kyocera KR1 router. It's primary feature is that it accepts the Sprint PCMCIA wireless card and gives me both WAN and WLAN (G)...however it is not a very feature rich router as settings go. There is no way for instance to set QoS, but still...it is just way cool for what it does do. I however have not found much of a difference in QoS between running the MJ plugged into my desktop which runs on a home network thru the Kyocera with the internet accessed via the Sprint card and the Sprint card plugged directly into my laptop via PCMCIA and the MJ plugged into a USB port on the laptop. The results of side by speed measurements are also very similar taking into consideration the constantly changing RF environment wireless internet lives within.

And that is entirely possible ... jitter is due to packets arriving out of sequence which MAY be helped considerably by QoS (i.e., in particular when you have multiple apps using your upstream bandwidth and "clogging the pipe"). Prioritizing VOIP packets over other network traffic can help to ensure that those packets arrive in sequence and w/o unnecessary delay. We all are simply trying to do the best we can to those packets while the packets are in our Network and on their way to our ISP. Beyond that physical point, there isn't a lot we can do.

mufon wrote:
Realistically, the endpoints are what really count, because that is where packets gain payload. The mtu at your endpoints have to be equal to or smaller than the smallest mtu of the path between endpoints. The optimal mtu is always going to be the mtu that fits the pipeline between endpoints without splitting the application layer's payload, therefore your mtu at your pc should equal the lowest mtu along the path between endpoints. Anything lower than that is not necessary unless you are unsure of the path mtu. In that case a little too low is better that a little too high., but going is low as 200 is just ridiculous and would only increase the aggregate latency of payload delivery, unless of course your path mtu is 200. Not likely unless your using dialup or pony express. If someone has a "stutter"problem they may want to see a therapist, but lowering endpoint mtu below path mtu isn't going to be of any help. Jitter on the other hand is not an mtu problem but rather is because of packets that arrive out of sequence and the transport protocol is udp. Since jack's jitter buffer is set in the registry and changes made will get overwritten the next time jack starts, then the next option is to set qos, tos, or cos if possible. Start by adding qos to your ip stack in Windows, and set any settings your router may provide. Sip should be "cs3" and rtp should be "ef". Simple qos settings would be priorities 3 and 5 respectively, or "maximize reliability" and "minimize delay" respectively. Tos values of 0x68 and 0xB8 are good if appropriate.for your router. Settings that maximize throughput or bandwith are tempting but won't provide the result you seek.


Bingo. Problem is that most consumer-grade routers will not have this level of control (i.e., "maximize reliability" or "minimize delay"). Typically just "higher" or "highest" priority vs. normal vs. low.
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Image
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:50 pm    Post subject:

Anyone care to give specifics on how they configured QoS for MagicJack?

In reading this sticky's title, I know that's what I was hoping for and not an MTU debate! Rolling Eyes
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HolmanGT
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Saint George, UT

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject:

Image,

I'll see your bet and raise you one. I don't even know where you go to configure the QoS.

I did turn the one in my router off because I made a completely hypothetical assumption that you don't want two QoSes running on the same system.

So:
1. Router QoS = off.
2. Windows Vista Ultimate QoS = on and un-tuned (don't know how, didn't know you could).
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dbarber
MagicJack Contributor


Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 58
Location: West Chester, PA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:47 pm    Post subject:

HolmanGT wrote:
Image,

I did turn the one in my router off because I made a completely hypothetical assumption that you don't want two QoSes running on the same system.

So:
1. Router QoS = off.
2. Windows Vista Ultimate QoS = on and un-tuned (don't know how, didn't know you could).


I would think that you would want the opposite. Have the router QoS on so that you could control network bandwidth utilization. That way you could prioritize packets from your MJ machine over any other traffic. If there are no other computers on your network......., NEVER MIND!

Donn
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saxman
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 25 Feb 2008
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:13 am    Post subject:

I have dsl-I ran the voip test last week and it was not good. I installed the Hawking HBB1 Broadband Booster-The new test shows a perfect score and the sound is great! It's worth the 25 dollars!
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Gerry_52
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 143
Location: Denver, Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject:

saxman wrote:
I have dsl-I ran the voip test last week and it was not good. I installed the Hawking HBB1 Broadband Booster-The new test shows a perfect score and the sound is great! It's worth the 25 dollars!


Where did you find it for $25.00? I'm wondering if this will help with VOIP using a Sprint Wireless card? The wireless card is plugged into a Kyocera router which has no QoS settings available. Might be worth a shot for $25.00.
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saxman
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 25 Feb 2008
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:16 pm    Post subject:

I got mine on sale at Fry's Electronics. I don't know what all it helps but that sounds like it would. I works to improve the connection speed and my dsl speed has definetly improved as well as the voip quality-Check it out here
http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=36&FamID=80&ProdID=216
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msiam
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Posts: 474
Location: WI

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject:

My sister in the sticks of FL needs something like that for her Verizon Wireless card. I cant seem to get her a good conversation out of her MJ.. I'm in WI so I cant help from here.. Please let me know how you would set that up with her configuration of the wireless card. Gerry, do you have a wireless sprint connected somehow to a router? How did you do that?? I am curious to the scenario and configuration on that. What router did you use so far? Sis needs it!!
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Gerry_52
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 143
Location: Denver, Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject:

I am using a Kyocera KR1 router. It accepts a PCMCIA wireless card and gives you both wired (4 RJ45 jacks) and 802.11g wireless. It is very cool. It also runs on 12V and comes with both a cigarette lighter plug and a wall wart. I am involved in emergency communications, so when I put it in the vehicle it gives me a rolling hotspot for all intents and purposes. I have used both Vonage and the magicjack with it. I'm not sure why but the Vonage phone will generally outperform the MJ. I'm hoping that with the release of the new codec for the mj the performance will improve. I am also a T Mobile subscriber and with the new Curve from Blackberry and the $10 a month [email protected] plan you can use your cell phone over wi-fi to make unlimited calls for the $10 a month. So, if you take the Kyocera router with you and you initiate the phone call on the Kyocera using wi-fi and transition to the cell system by walking away from your car or turning off the router the remainder of the call will not be charged against your minutes...so how cool is that!
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Saratogamk5648
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY

PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject: Cablenut still workd well with XP and DSL

For XP, Cablenut works well in setting all values for DSL, download it and the Upgrade settings. DSL normally has a 1492 DSL value, the RWIN also very important (Cablenut will set this according to your computer memory, speed and latency calculations). Doesn't work with Vista (what does!). There is a small application called WLAN Optimizer .NET that shuts down the WLAN Zero Config service. Speaking delays sometimes occur when VISTA auto searches for more optimum connections and can affect your connection whether you're using WLAN or wired. QOS, am using it but am not convinced of it's need, bandwith needs with MJ is just too small.
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BigRick
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 11 May 2008
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject:

HolmanGT wrote:
The MJ uses such a small amount of bandwidth


I believe this is the problem, insuficiant bandwidth for MJ to utilize.
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dontazzz
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:26 am    Post subject: Re: Bandwidth Management to address delays?

I have the same thing going on and mj is trying to help....and I am trying to read here and I am not very good with computers so thought the one two three would work but it getting to be more work. I wish it was easy cause right now my head is hurting and I have try three different phones thinking it was the phone and the (mj chat) person said it does not work with wireless have to be hooked up to the router. so I wrote to ask for a return number and (mj chat)another person has try to fix it and we went deeeper in to my computer and then down loaded divx which I have not figure what that has to do with this.
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edwardk
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject:

I too am in Canada (using a 7MB ADSL connection through sympatico) and I have a.5 second delay. I have optimized my stacks, my router settings, I have done the magicfix, I installed the DIVX codec (MJ support asked me to do this) and I still have it

Everything else is great. No noise, static, jitter, etc. Just a slight annoying delay. I use to use Skype Pro before and never had this issue.
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Stewart
Dan Should Pay Me


Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 663

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject:

edwardk wrote:
I too am in Canada (using a 7MB ADSL connection through sympatico) and I have a.5 second delay. I have optimized my stacks, my router settings, I have done the magicfix, I installed the DIVX codec (MJ support asked me to do this) and I still have it

In your post here: http://www.phoneservicesupport.com/post11815.html I gave you several suggestions for reducing your delay. The most important one is to not send your calls to Los Angeles and back. Have you tried these suggestions? If so, did you see any improvement?
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SpamBox
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Rocky Mountains Front Range

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:43 am    Post subject:

edwardk wrote:
I installed the DIVX codec (MJ support asked me to do this)


Why the heck would one need to install the Divx codec? Does Mj need this? I prefer Xvid over Divx? Will H.264 work give me HD quality phone calls? Laughing
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HolmanGT
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Saint George, UT

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:47 am    Post subject:

SpamBox wrote:
edwardk wrote:
I installed the DIVX codec (MJ support asked me to do this)


Why the heck would one need to install the Divx codec? Does Mj need this? I prefer Xvid over Divx? Will H.264 work give me HD quality phone calls? Laughing


SpamBox,

I have heard this one before, I have no idea why it would need it. But if it does or would like to have it I game to try (????).

I'll bet MozerD knows the answer to this on but he doesn't come around much anymore. I may just have to email or call him and see if he knows.
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SpamBox
Dan isn't smart enough to hire me


Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Rocky Mountains Front Range

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:42 am    Post subject:

HolmanGT wrote:

I have heard this one before, I have no idea why it would need it. But if it does or would like to have it I game to try (????).


When the heck do you sleep? I'm at work (now on the late overnight shift 10pm-8:30am). Was bored today so thought I woudl check out the forum. Been awhile since I've stopped by. Didn't realize it had changed URLs.
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HolmanGT
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Saint George, UT

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:28 pm    Post subject:

SpamBox wrote:
HolmanGT wrote:

I have heard this one before, I have no idea why it would need it. But if it does or would like to have it I game to try (????).


When the heck do you sleep? I'm at work (now on the late overnight shift 10pm-8:30am). Was bored today so thought I woudl check out the forum. Been awhile since I've stopped by. Didn't realize it had changed URLs.


Change URLs and for the better. Now you don't have to wait a day and a half for a screen to come up and your posts and PM don't get trashed half way thru.... Sleep, Hell I don't know my schedule is so screwed up I don't know if it is day or night. Confused
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randie
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:49 am    Post subject:

As for Canada, we always get screwed. Shaw Cablesystems here in B.C. and Alberta provides their own telephone service under the name Shaw home phone.

It is similar to what some of the big cable companies offer in the USA.

Shaw has their own dedicated network for this service, and freely admits to limiting the ability of their customers to use any voip type service, or the MJ.

I honestly have no idea how they make it that you can surf at blazing speeds, but cannot use bandwith for the MJ, or a Voip service, but again, the clearly admit to doing this.
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JackTheMan18
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject:

randie wrote:
As for Canada, we always get screwed. Shaw Cablesystems here in B.C. and Alberta provides their own telephone service under the name Shaw home phone.

It is similar to what some of the big cable companies offer in the USA.

Shaw has their own dedicated network for this service, and freely admits to limiting the ability of their customers to use any voip type service, or the MJ.

I honestly have no idea how they make it that you can surf at blazing speeds, but cannot use bandwith for the MJ, or a Voip service, but again, the clearly admit to doing this.


I am in Toronto, using Rogers Cable as my ISP. Do you know if Rogers is "limiting" VOIP service here as well? I have a slight delay in connecting, and many "dropouts".
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schwim
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Western NC

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:53 pm    Post subject:

Hi there everyone,

I know it was discussed over a year ago, but could one of the techier members tell me if you're applying QoS by application or by port(and if by port, which one?). I'm too new to the system to have experienced any performance problems, but wanted to nix what I could before it happened.

thanks,
json
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HolmanGT
MagicJack Sensei


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1127
Location: Saint George, UT

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:10 pm    Post subject:

schwim wrote:
Hi there everyone,

I know it was discussed over a year ago, but could one of the techier members tell me if you're applying QoS by application or by port(and if by port, which one?). I'm too new to the system to have experienced any performance problems, but wanted to nix what I could before it happened.

thanks,
json


Json,

I have never tweaked my QoS and all has been fine. I personally believe it has more to do with the MJ server you normally default to. And I have seen a few post here that by change their default server most of the audio problems would disappear for the individual making the post.

A problem with using port configuration with MJ is that it uses some ports in the 10,000 to 30,000 range at random. Some have actually opened up all those ports to cater to MJ, personally I don't think that is wise but what the hell do I know. By the way if you don't open up the entire range (and the range I mentioned may not be 100% accurate but close) and MJ attempts to use one you didn't open you problem will return and you'll be back scratching your head.

Also remember that QoS is only a one way street for outgoing data so it will not be much help for incoming.

My personal bullet proof recommendation is don't use you Internet for anything while make a phone call. follow that rule and you won't have any problems at least not any that are created on your end of the pipe.

If you have a large pipe... say 1 up 10 down as I do most all your MJ communications will be great. But remember MJ has it moods (OK so it has a lot of moods) so don't go dismantling your computer every time it acts up a little. Most MJ problems go away on their own if you give it a little time.

Just remember for $20 dollars a year you are going to get lost and lost of free long distance phone call that will be great quality but for $20 a year you may not have 365 days of perfection albeit close. Very Happy

PS - "The Gospel According to HolmanGT" Never, Never, Never let MJ Tech support talk you into changing or removing software on your personal computer. That is there standard Modes Operandi and usually finishes with your computer broken, MJ not working and the Tech say well I am going to have to escalate this up to engineering and you will get a call in a few days - "I have some swamp land if you are interested". If you have problems come here and follow the instructions of the more seasoned members. It is not as satisfying as talking straight to the horses mouth but the answers you get will be more accurate and I guarantee less painful.
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schwim
magicJack Apprentice


Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Western NC

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 4:41 pm    Post subject:

Hi there George and thanks very much for your reply.

I understand your point and it makes complete sense. Luckily we've got substantial available throughput on our end. We've used it a few times so far and the quality has been good. One dropped call and a couple odd artifacts, but as you stated, I've told my wife that there will be some form of trade off for saving over 800 bucks a year. I told her when she gets frustrated at the phone, ask herself if it's worth $800 annually to get rid of the quirk Smile

Thanks again for your response. I imagine you're right that I'll be more likely to run into throughput issues outside of my local network. You know how it is when you get something new though. You try to find all possible weak points. Often it goes a little overboard Smile

thanks,
json
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bern09
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Canadain man`s delay

I am from Canada and had this same problem until I talked online with majicjack and they helped me add ports to my firewall so that majicjack could work through or around the firewall. That solved the problem.
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daniel devereaux
MagicJack Newbie


Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:56 am    Post subject: Ports for UDP Voip packets that MJ uses:

If you "forward" ports 5060 and 5070 for UDP packets on your window's firewall *and* your home router (not Cable/Fios/DSL modem) - most of your voice quality issues should go away!
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